Photographer's Note
Hot day in Ghent during the vacation time.
A lot tourists alike is the Graslei the most beautiful spot of this bustling city. And rightly so! Once this was the center of the medieval port and the Flemish grain trade and still you can along the quay walls from this period genuine admiration. For example, "The Denim 'number 10 on a medieval choir staple stepgable house with the oldest in the world. Links are underpinned by the guildhall of the Corn Meters in Flemish Renaissance style, the guildhall of the Free Schippers in Brabant Gothic. The pay toll is now the smallest pub in Ghent, but was once one of the busiest places of Genste port, and arranged for when the rich resources of the city. The Korenlei on the other side you find the guildhall of the involuntary house and the Swaen Schippers, a former brewery and later port brothel.
The ships have now given way to tourist boats and during the summer months the terraces lure people of all sorts. In addition to the romantic coupling valances, families with children and wannabe guitar heroes with Dreadlocks are mainly the Ghent students who are here at night to go out group obtained a day studying.
I wish everyone a very well weekend.
Shooting Date/Time
13/07/2008 12:53:47
Tv(Shutter Speed)
1/100Sec.
Av(Aperture Value)
F20
Metering Modes
Centerweighted average metering
Exposure Compensation
0
ISO Speed
100
Lens
EF16-35mm f/2.8L USM
Focal Length
16,0 mm
Image size
4368 x 2912
Image Quality
RAW
Picture Style
Landscape
carper, kaptan, Floydian, pierrefonds, snunney, sweet_universe, Vames, tedesse, belido, kermit350, trekks, TopGeo, fulvio52, zeca, phwall, azaf1, Photo65Net, mvdisco, bertolucci, yedirenk, AiresSantos, jusninasirun, josepmarin, Philippe, gracious, gunbud, papagolf21, paura, lrw1966, JCG, Didi, emjleclercq, Sne011, emilbo, jafadabret, salvator, saylan-cb, Amaz, pajaran, riclopes, jcpix, ourania, mcmtanyel Ý÷ïõí(åé) åðéëÝîåé áõôÞ ôç óçìåßùóç ùò ÷ñÞóéìç
Critiques | Translate
carper
(96) 2008-10-31 0:05
vriend U bent mijn buurman vandaag,
nou dat komt nooit voor.;
prachtige foto met goede details fraaie lijnen en een mooie balans, fraai fotowerkhier mijn vriend. prettige dag verder
Jaap
barrufeto_77
(28888) 2008-10-31 0:39
Hi John.
Nice depth! I like your lovely POV with the houses we can see in the left.
And the people, giving dynamism are lovely.
Rgs, Oscar
mikolaj_kawa
(0) 2008-10-31 1:01
Hello John! Wonderful perspective. Nice scene, very nice people and amazing architecture. Very good composition and perfect capture. Original shot. Good luck!
mauro61
(53411) 2008-10-31 1:23
ciao John,
grandissima profondità, colori fantastici...
risultato...
una immagine stupenda,
complimenti
buona giornata
maurizio
JLG
(2086) 2008-10-31 1:48
bonjour John
cette scène urbaine est de toute beauté
la perspective superbe avec une grande richese des details
bravo
jean louis
Floydian
(30970) 2008-10-31 1:54
Goede morgen John,
Een mooie plaatje uit Ghent. Lijkt wele en samenscholing hier, amar de mensen opzich maken de foto wel uitermate levendig en dat geeft er meteen een kleurrijke sfeer aan.
Technisch gezien perfect uitgevoerd, belichting is top...prima werk.
Prettige dag, Henk
rodgerg
(55767) 2008-10-31 2:53
Dag John,
Quelle superbe perspective sur ce quai et ces très belles maisons. Les jeunes assis sur le quai apportent une belle touche de vie et de couleurs. Le POV met bien en valeur les maisons et le ciel. UNe très belle vue de cette belle ville que je dois visiter un des ces prochains WE.
Amitiés et à bientôt,
Roger
gilou530
(34) 2008-10-31 2:59
salut john
un quai trés animé avec une belle perspective qui fuit loin vers le fond, netteté toujours aussi nickel bon travail
amitiés
gilbert
pierrefonds
(103402) 2008-10-31 3:37
Good Morning John,
The presence of the people has an effect of scale and giving a daily life effect on the scenery. The reflections in the water of canal are assets to the composition. The point of view leads our eyes toward the end of the canal which is giving depth and perspective to the photo. The sky is sending a light that is enhancing the colors. Have a nice day.
Pierre
snunney
(130967) 2008-10-31 3:47
Hello John,
I like the long perspective along the canal and the busy atmosphere. Also, the interesting architecture lining both sides of the canal. The interesting sky adds to the atmosphere. Very good colours and clarity.
Greg1949
(9011) 2008-10-31 4:30
Nice one John, I like these with people that show the city as alive and not so static. Colors are great as is the detail and focus. Fine capture, well seen.
Greg
sweet_universe
(1697) 2008-10-31 5:00
Ciao!
How are you!
I like your pic very much. Lights and colours are fantastic...
Congratulations
Marco
delkoo
(68) 2008-10-31 5:28
hi john,
this is absolutely great shot, full of light and colors and people. Excellent composition and perfect moment to capture such place and such scene.
regards
didier
tedesse
(25147) 2008-10-31 6:19
Hello!
Fantastic view,excellent perspective,splendid colours,good light and sharpness.
Beautiful architecture and nice details.
Greetings
Tadeusz
belido
(19934) 2008-10-31 6:50
Hi John,
I like this wide view thanks to your 16-35 in a full frame sensor. Love the perspective and the human inclusion. A happy scene from a hot day :) Great shot!
Regards,
Carlos
UnTrained
(0) 2008-10-31 7:17
Dag John,
nice view along the facades and colour spots by the young people everywhere. I like the depth and blue sky with fantastic clouds.
Lieben Gruss, Ulf
kermit350
(9016) 2008-10-31 8:08
Bonjour John,
le choix du cadrage ou les touristes sont très présent augmente encore l’équilibre de la composition, ça donne envie de visiter ces lieux, mais pour ça il va falloir attendre au moins le printemps pour retrouvé les belle couleur comme dans ta photo, j'aime beaucoup l'impression d'espace que tu as su rendre, tu as idéalement fais ressortir l’architecture du palais des corporations et de l’ensemble des bâtiments qui longe le canal, bien amicalement
pablominto
(53746) 2008-10-31 8:16
Hello John,
A pleasant flashback to summer!
Seems like a lot of guys have found the the canal is the place to sit and relax, hehehe...
Great perspective and good sharpness in the dwindling details, a fine balanced composition!
Greetings,
Pablo -
luighi
(5303) 2008-10-31 8:20
Hola Jhon , increibles detalles y definicion en esta captura , perfecto manejo de luz y de saturacion , me encantan las nubes del fondo , los reflejos del agua y la gente que le da vida a la foto.Buen trabajo amigo.
Un abrazo.
Luis
mortijo
(12828) 2008-10-31 9:00
Hallo John,
Een éooie foto hier, veel detail en, dank zij de groothoek, veel diepte en perspectief. Lijkt een beetje op die van mij maar die was vanop de brug genomen.
Een fijne avond
John
trekks
(14348) 2008-10-31 9:19
hi John
From the large group of people taking a rest here, this must be a fun place for visitors to take a break and absorb the scenery.
Nice shot under blue sky but without harsh light! I really wish our lighting conditions are like this one. tfs
bill
MarcT
(20964) 2008-10-31 9:55
Salut John,
Une belle carte postale de vacances avec les éléments bien en place.
Bon WE également
Marc
bracasha75
(24591) 2008-10-31 10:34
Helo John
One hot sommer day in Ghent and nice relaxing people next the river...
Very good shot
TFS
salut,Braca
danyy
(0) 2008-10-31 10:53
Bonjour John,
grâce à un post processing judicieux, les couleurs parviennent à éclater malgré un certain manque de lumières.
Un scène nette et bien cadrée.
Excellent week-end.
Daniel.
testmaniac
(13508) 2008-10-31 12:25
Hi John, ohh really nice street shot with excellent colors and contrast. Superb composition,exposure and perfect photo quality!
Excellent job John! Congratulation!
TFS and regards,
Phil
Alco
(7559) 2008-10-31 12:58
Hello John,
Nice picture.I like that row of buildings on the left and their reflection in the water.People relaxing near the river add life to your picture.The colors of the sky are very nice.
Have a nice weekend.
Alain
TopGeo
(38220) 2008-10-31 13:05
I like your long view of the buildings which allows me to see more of its context and style.
Hi John!The young peoples in the really livens them up and along with the pathway, helps to lead the eye into the shot Great piece of architecture that you present here. I like the composition with the river and the buildings that are forming a nice diagonal.A wonderful BG blue sky and clouds with composition colorful ,nice diagonal composition and good POV,
Have a nice day.
Georgios
Cormac
(26565) 2008-10-31 15:11
Classic shot! The old buildings are shown very well, both in their relation to each other, but also to the canal. I like the fact that there are a lot of people visible in the shot too, because they bring some context and also add a sense of life to the scene. Well done!
fulvio52
(8314) 2008-10-31 16:59
Hoi, John.
Prachtige diagonalen, perfecte belichting, zeer innemend kwa sfeer. Het is gewoon leuk voor mij om jonge mensen op een normale manier zien relaxen in hartje Gent... Hier in Amsterdam zou dat gelijk met overmatig alcoholgebruik & drugs gepaard gaan. Dat is het idee van relaxen in de stad waar ik woon, he!
Mooie shot, in alle opzichten. Bedankt!
Ik wens je nog een fijne weekend, tot gauw.
Fulvio.
zeca
(19762) 2008-10-31 20:24
Very nice presentation of Flanders daily life, John. The architecture is beautiful, the colours very well saturated and I like the composition including lots of people. Well taken!
Have a nice weekend!
Zeca
phwall
(6785) 2008-11-01 1:56
Hi John,
Lovely capture of life along the Quay. Interesting to see so many people in the area, are they locals or tourists.
Beautiful sharp image and fine composition, the depth in the shot is simply amazing.
Superb image.
Regards
peter
azaf1
(15929) 2008-11-01 2:22
Good morning John
What a day! A perfect time to laze around in a beautiful place like that. Terrific atmosphere, great perspective, a playful sky and sharp details. All in one!
Have a great weekend and TFS
Argiris
Photo65Net
(43144) 2008-11-01 2:55
Hello John,
Nice use of wide angle here.
I like a lot the perspective and the depth, and how you composed with and around them.
Have a nice day,
JB.
mark_mk
(266) 2008-11-01 4:32
Hi John,
nice cityscape! I really like the sky, which really looks nice! The depth created by your POV is also great and as usual you delivered a perfect quality. Great shot, many thanks for sharing!
Take care
Mark
Silvio1953
(205519) 2008-11-01 6:57
Hi John, lovely composition full of people, wonderful perspective and splendid colors, very well done, ciao Silvio
kevinos
(7517) 2008-11-01 7:42
This is a very elegant , Belgium cityscape, John, that provides a good setting for this casual group of relaxed young people. regards kevin
nwoehnl
(122) 2008-11-01 9:14
Good use of the ultra-wide angle in this one, John. You get a deep feeling of perspective from the converging lines and the staggered alignment of people who are enjoying the summer day by the canal. A nice vivid and colorful impression with the reflections providing a good calming addition.
mvdisco
(17798) 2008-11-01 9:17
Hi John,
Great composition and well presented picture, nice perpective and details, colors is naturel and beautiful, magnifique endroit ...
tous mes compliments,.
Michel
bertolucci
(14052) 2008-11-01 11:39
Een heel bekende en zeer gewaardeerde plek John. Mooi te zien hoe de leidende diagonaal het sterke perspectief bepaalt en ook hoe de massa mensen zich langs die diagonaal lijkt te verdichten. De kleuren en definitie zijn perfect en de mensen die rechts het frame uitlopen geven een extra verhalend accent. Sterk werk, John.
Een fijn weekend uit een duister Rotterdam bij 8,7 gr C.
Bert
ysabaner
(1069) 2008-11-01 13:55
Colors and sharpness wonderful, sky, clouds and river everthing very nice. Best regards.
Yahya
yedirenk
(11244) 2008-11-01 18:00
Hi Dear John,
wonderful atmosphere very peaceful.great depth and perspective with superb point of view.also excellent clarity and light.very nice natural colours.well done.TFS
Greetings
Cevdet
AiresSantos
(56155) 2008-11-02 3:03
Hi John
Lovely POV in this fine composition. Excllent view in this hot day in Ghent.
Very well framed and done
Have a nice Sunday
Aires
jusninasirun
(17529) 2008-11-02 4:03
Hi John. This is really good capture of people chilling out along this river bank on a hot day in Ghent. Sharp details with good depth and perspective. I like the sky with puffy white cloud contrasting well with this rustic architecture. TFS and best regards. Jusni
josepmarin
(59385) 2008-11-02 4:07
Hi John,
This summer scene is very agreeable at sight during these cold and rainy days.
I like your setting and the great perspective that you have achieved, that it gives a great sensation of depth and dynamism to the composition.
Great light and beautiful colors, with a magnificent sky.
Nice work, my friend.
Best regards,
Josep
Philippe
(11836) 2008-11-02 6:36
Dag, John. Een mooi perspectief langs het kanaal. De mensen maken het beeld zeer levendig en hun kleurrijke kleren contrasteren met de klassieke gevels. Het geheel komt zeer goed uit op de mooie lucht.
Prettige zondag verder,
Philippe
jaywalker
(16105) 2008-11-02 9:06
Hi John, A wonderful daily life photo & the chosen POV is excellent, I really like the architecture on ether side of the canal, very sharp & an easy feel to the picture, kind regards Wilson.
gracious
(20025) 2008-11-02 10:39
Hello my friend John,
Must be a hot day with so many people to get out of the building for some fresh cool air!
the pov is great with great depth here with wonderful colour and superb details
many thanks for the notes and sharing
take care
Tony
Gdouble
(0) 2008-11-02 13:54
Dag John,
Eindelijk terug wat tijd om je mooie composities te bekijken. Dit is weer zo'n perfecte samenstelling
Guy
John_F_Kennedy
(43797) 2008-11-02 23:50
A nice perspective along the canal with the houses and their lovely facade. I really like this type of city. Well done.
Best wishes,
Achim
Nicou
(193806) 2008-11-03 1:06
Hello,
superbe perspective avec les reflets des maison, les personnage le lung du qui, de belle teinte, superbe.
Bravo et amitié
Nicou
PixelTerror
(0) 2008-11-03 3:13
HI John,
There was not plenty of light on that day and the shade is dominating the frame, however this shows an interesting feature of the 5D, be able to deliver a luminous impression even with such conditions, here I'm impressed by the skin on peoples' arms, the clouds also tell a lot about dynamic range. About your question, well it's not something important to me, I'm actually more concerned by the bad atmosphere developping in the general forum.
Have a nice day, Groeten JY
papagolf21
(152599) 2008-11-03 4:15
Cher ami John,
Très belle perspective des quais de Gand. Lieux qui se prêtent à la flânerie et au repos, à la détente !
L'effet de perspective est joliment rendu avec de part et d'autre du canal les vieilles maisons qui possèdent un charme fou.
Amitiés.
Addenda : cher ami, en effet, nous sommes parfois enviés, mais qu'importe, nous sommes avant tout des amis qui aiment ce site pour ce qu'il apporte : la découverte, la beauté, l'étrange, l'apprentissage du monde. Les chiens aboient, la caravane passe !
Philippe
marcan44
(6315) 2008-11-03 12:22
Time to relax in a sun day.
But the environment is really very nice.
In particular, I admire the architecture of the houses.
In addition, the shot have the strength in depth and excellent sharpness.
Well done
Best regards
Mario
paura
(25802) 2008-11-04 3:10
John,
A imagem está com uma apresentação linda, com eficiente resultado na composição e tomada. Beleza de trbalho.
Abraço
Paulo
lrw1966
(1632) 2008-11-04 4:27
John Hi:
Marvelous daily life, so very interesting an educational for me. Wonderful PoV, clarity of colors and detials and amazing reflections.
Thanks for the wonderful notes, as well
Congratulations, very nice, my good friend
Larry
USA-tfs
hdl
(7035) 2008-11-04 4:35
De titel deed mij al vermoeden dat deze foto niet deze week was genomen ;-)) Mooie foto; goeie evenwichtige indeling en goede diepte. De mensen op de kade zorgen voor heel wat kleur en leven.
Disabled_A
(0) 2008-11-04 15:23
Hello John,
very interesting perspective view, with the houses and their beautiful reflection in the water, and people - a very nice daily life scene! Very lovely colours and good depth and light management. The bright blue colour of the cloudy sky adds some sunshine to the scene :)
best regards,
Elena
Longroute
(19600) 2008-11-05 7:41
Very, very nice!
A sharp image with a lot of details to look at. The canal and the sidewalk lead the eye to the far end of it. Good sense of depth, nearly a 3D photo. Fine environment.
Compliments,
Donato
JCG
(35153) 2008-11-05 9:19
Bonsoir John,
L'utilisation du grand angle et ce choix de la prise de vue offre une belle profondeur dans l'image et une excellent perspective animée par cette foule. Une retour estival bien agréable compte tenu du temps médiocre que nous subissons actuellement. J'aime beaucoup les qualités de la photo tant les lumières que dans la netteté de l'image, j'apprécie également le contraste avec ce joli ciel bleu. Bien vu John, bravo.
Avec toutes mes amitiés et une très bonne soirée,
Jean-Charles
Didi
(61589) 2008-11-05 14:10
Bonjour mon cher John
Intéressante perspective couplé à cet alignement de jeunes; cela donne une scène vivante en ce jour de juillet.
A f/20 la profondeur de champ est bien étalée jusqu'à l'infini.
Amitiés.
emjleclercq
(15778) 2008-11-11 23:13
Very nice perpective again, but this time a lot more people than usually in your pictures, probably because this isa urban view.
All the best,
Emmanuel
mikeo
(12129) 2008-11-14 0:49
Hello John,
Very nice daily scene. All these people on the right, beautiful buildings, river and lovely sky create excellent holiday postcard.
I like it a lot!
Best greetings,
Mikeo
Sne011
(3084) 2008-11-18 7:32
Hello John,
Beautiful photo including daily life and beautiful architecture of Ghent. Great perspective and depth, excellent realization!!
Have a nice evening,
Sneza
jemaflor
(135270) 2008-12-07 10:48
Hi John,
Interesting depth with this perspective, well framed with people to give life at your view, nice reflection on water.
emilbo
(22616) 2008-12-10 10:17
Salut John!
Une magnifique scène de rue, je sais si je peux dire çà mais c'est une superbe promenade avec le canal qui la longe et les appartements. Excellente perspective et bon rendu des couleurs. Beaucoup de vie le long de ce canal.
Félicitations!... et bonne soirée,
Emilius
jafadabret
(56501) 2008-12-20 5:30
Bonjour John.
J'aime la perspective du quai et du canal qui entraine le regard sur ce ciel d'été magnifique. C'est une photo qui fait du bien en ce mois de décembre. Les gens sont là pour se reposer et profiter du beau temps de juillet.
Bon weekend,
Jacques
salvator
(19110) 2009-01-06 12:59
Hi John,
The vivd colors, the sharpness and clarity of the photo look absolutely wonderful. The sense of depth and the thinning out water look very nice.
Best regards. Salvator.
gunbud
(34066) 2009-01-11 5:43
Hi John,
Very peaceful urban landscape with the lazy tourist enjoying lunch along the banks of this lovely canal.
Wonderful depth created by the long line of the canal that is so beautiful framed by the lovely Belgium architecture as its sits so serenely below the fantastic blue sky.
Regards, Tom
Giorgio
(11279) 2009-01-25 7:09
- Jolie composition John, un moment de vie tranquille qui sent bon le farniente et les vacances, un jour de repos en tout cas, l'ambiance paisible est bien présente, le beau ciel nuageux est un indéniable plus, bravo !
Bonne fin de week-end.
giorgio
saylan-cb
(12738) 2009-01-31 4:16
Hi John,
This is a very bautiful view with great apture and very nice compositions.The colours, details,POV,light all wonderful.
Excellent work!
Have a nice weekend,
TFS/Regards
giorgimer
(35017) 2009-01-31 15:48
Hi John,
I like a lot the pleasant and relaxing mood in this view. Nice perspective, beautiful sky.
TFS
Gio
Angshu
(56760) 2009-02-08 21:16
Dag John
A good shot of the old town, with finely created perspective of the canal & the rows of medieval houses on either side. The lamppost creates a strong focal point & the people in their colourful dresses offer a splash of colour. Techically fantastic as always!
Best Regards
Angshu
Amaz
(11475) 2009-07-10 1:58
Hi John,
it's really wonderful capture!!
Superb architecture and relaxed people in summertime!!
Perfect composition and nice depth!!!
My congrats!!!
pajaran
(102482) 2010-04-30 12:21
Dobro vece gospodine.
Mnogo lepo mesto sa omladinom, kao da se takmice ...
Odlican trenutak i perspektiva, dobro prikazan kej na kanalu i arhitektura , oblaci su dali car snimku.
Svidja mi se trenutak snimka prikazan lepom fotografijom, cestitam vam.
Prijatno vece, zeli vam Paja.
Google.
Goedenavond, meneer.
Veel leuke plaats met jongeren, alsook om te concurreren ...
Uitstekend punt en perspectief, goed weergegeven in het kanaal en de kade architectuur, wolken gaf de auto footage.
Ik hou van mooie moment van de clip zien van een foto, ik feliciteer je.
Heb een leuke avond, je wilt Paja.
Good evening, sir.
A lot of nice place with youth, as well as to compete ...
Excellent point and perspective, well displayed in the channel and wharf architecture, clouds gave car footage.
I love beautiful moment of the clip shown a photograph, I congratulate you.
Have a nice evening, you want Paja.
guitianmiranda
(22) 2010-05-10 7:37
Hot day and nice POV, I like the DOF and graphism effect you did to the picture.
Regards, Carlos.
riclopes
(35577) 2010-08-04 1:45
Olá John, I'm pleased to see people here besides the beautiful architecture and river. Great perspective, wonderful colorful mood with tourists enjoying the place. Again, you have a marvellous sky enhancing and I love the silhouette of the lamppost in the distance.
best regards,
ric
quillo
(11858) 2010-11-29 10:55
Hola John ........
Me gusta ver gente en las fotos,
le da ese punto de vida,
de calor y eso es bueno
sobre todo cuando es en una composición
interesante como esta,
con buenos detalles de luz,
color y profundidad.
Un abrazo amigo y feliz noche.
Miguel82
(47106) 2013-06-01 2:00
Bonjour John,
It is an excellent report of daily life in Ghent
People relaxing nearby this canal, good perspective and depth, a hot day memory
Superb architecture
Kind regards
jcpix
(14030) 2014-07-13 11:23
Hi John,
Living in Phoenix, I know all too well about hot days. :) I only wish I had somewhere just as picturesque to go and enjoy while dealing with the blazing temperatures....I'm only surrounded by desert cactus and concrete!? A lovely scene which would inspire anyone to be outside and sit along the canal to soak up the relaxed atmosphere and take in the beautiful architecture. This strong converging perspective takes us all the way into the distance and around the bend with ease...just like the people we see here, at ease. :) Hope you had a nice weekend. Take good care.
Friendly wishes,
Jason
ourania
(51103) 2014-08-23 1:08
Hello John,
the effect of the heat is more evident in the people's attitudes, most of them look weary and idle but they are surely enjoying this picturesque setting by the water. A hot day in Athens (like today) looks much different:) Your composition has marvelous perspective and depth, wonderful details and superb moody colours. Congratulations and thank you!
All the best, have a lovely weekend,
Ourania
jmdias
(102744) 2014-12-20 23:48
john
excellent point of view using the diagonals of the edge of this canal. I liked these details and architecture and the use of people to add more life. TFS.
hugs
jorge
mcmtanyel
(58830) 2016-02-19 22:05
Hello John,
The canal seems to be a great gathering place for these people. I like the human element in this photo.
Regards,
MT
Photo Information
-
Copyright: John Maenhout (jhm)
(202831)
- Genre: ¢íèñùðïé
- Medium: ¸ã÷ñùìï
- Date Taken: 2008-07-13
- Categories: Êáèçìåñéíüôçôá
- Camera: Canonn 5D, Canon 16-35mm f2.8 L USM, Sandisk EXT.III4GB, B+W 77 010 UV-Haze 1x
- ¸êèåóç: f/20.0, 1/100 äåõôåñüëåðôá
- ¸êäïóç öùôïãñáößáò: Ðñùôüôõðç Ýêäïóç
- Date Submitted: 2008-10-31 0:03
Discussions
- To fulvio52: Gent (2)
by jhm, last updated 2008-11-01 09:11 - To nwoehnl: summer day by the canal (1)
by jhm, last updated 2008-11-01 09:56 - To jafadabret: du canal (2)
by jhm, last updated 2008-12-20 10:05