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kikvel 06-21-2005 02:00 AM

Trekearth Book
 
I was wondering if here at TE we can publish a book with a selected set of pictures of the members...

We can contribute in many ways, financially, with pictures etc etc...
Can this be possible?
Can we evaluate the feasibility of such a project?

regards;

K.

kevinos 06-21-2005 05:30 AM

Re: Trekearth Book
 
What a great idea! The owners of the site could approve someone to collect a range of the best pictures of the year and publish them in a book (with the photographer's permission, of course). I bet it would sell, travel photographs are always popular and the profits could be used for charity or something. Regards Kevin

kikvel 06-21-2005 05:42 AM

Re: Trekearth Book
 
yes, it could start with a similar method as it was used for the exhibition in Trieste

and I am sure it will succeed, and this can be done on a yearly basis...

Trekearth 2005

...

Trekearth 2006

K.

kinginexile 06-21-2005 06:48 AM

Re: Trekearth Book
 
I am not sure, we are all represented on TE galleries, this is the great quality of the site, the common ground is a mix of different aptitudes, philosophies, quality, all type of subjective approaches to each other's pix, this would get lost in a book limiting the participation, plus there are so many good shots on TE, people will get even more susceptible to why this or that guy gets his shot in and not this one. Arghhhh!... We already have so much discussions about who gets what points for what reasons.


the book is not necessarily a bad idea (BTW, it costs money to publish a decent photo book, a lot of money), I just fear the politics that will come with it.

Just my thoughts.

kikvel 06-21-2005 03:20 PM

Re: Trekearth Book
 
The exposition of Trieste was nice and it did not cause any inconveniences.
I still believe this will be a nice project to work in.

K.

mlopes 06-21-2005 05:01 PM

Re: Trekearth Book
 
Hi agree with you Cesar, it's a nice project to work, maybe there's someone among the members with knowledge in the world of publication and distribution... i know there are some writers among us.

If everybody give one photo and a little of their knowledge in the most diferent areas it will be a sucess...

i've probably don't have pictures worth of publication but count me in...

Mário

gringofil 06-21-2005 05:35 PM

Re: Trekearth Book
 
We talked about a book before, but nothing happened. I'm guessing the same outcome for this thread. It's really difficult to get everyone together, to suggest pictures and such and it's even more difficult to get the thing published. Don't know if you know, but getting a publisher to get a book out for you with a bunch of photos does not work...because it does not sell. If you're name is not McCurry you have no chance of getting published. Also, doing it yourself, if you will, the cost being so high, I doubt many would sign up to do it. Anyway, you can bring it up again, maybe this time something magically will happen...but I truly doubt it.

kinginexile 06-21-2005 06:06 PM

Re: Trekearth Book
 
Thanks for laying oiut the things straight, Gringofil, it is just a damned hard thing to bring out, a photography book.
Curious about Trieste. What was it about? An exposition is not a book, though, but not being sure what it was all about, thanks for filling me in.

kikvel 06-21-2005 06:21 PM

Re: Trekearth Book
 
I know other sites like this has done this, and I can not believe that we do not have the skills and the energy to work on such a project.

I would suggest to have a similar approach as the Exhibition of Trieste. Of course we have to define some things, but at the end I can identify a few tasks:

- Definition of how many pages it might contain (and how many pictures).
- Preselection of pictures.
- Voluntarily choice to join the project (this means also money and pictures contribution).
- To check in a country, maybe Spain how much would this cost.
- Selection of pictures.
- Request for notes that will accompany the picture.
- Revision of the notes.
- Preparation of the book itself.
- Definition of the volume to be produced.

etc etc

maybe I am a dreamer, but I repeat other site has done this before
are we less capable?

K.

kikvel 06-21-2005 06:45 PM

Re: Trekearth Book
 
and for you to believe me here it is the book I mentioned:

<a href ="http://www.itacacomunicacion.com/ojodigital/lod-cerrado.jpg">

<a href ="http://www.itacacomunicacion.com/ojodigital/lod-abierto.jpg">

kikvel 06-21-2005 06:50 PM

Re: Trekearth Book sorry html
 
<a href="http://www.itacacomunicacion.com/ojodigital/lod-cerrado.jpg"> Book of other site

kikvel 06-21-2005 06:55 PM

Other view of the same book
 
<a href="http://www.itacacomunicacion.com/ojodigital/lod-abierto.jpg">

Open book, it is certainly nice, and they did it by having a good organization, do you still believe it is not possible?

Isabelle 06-21-2005 07:12 PM

it is possible,
 
I think, and with some effort we would do it. and we would learn a lot while doing it...
count on me in :)

joseelias 06-21-2005 07:23 PM

Re: Trekearth Book
 
This issue has already been mentioned before many times, and as said, never lead to anything due to the difficulty of the task.

Still, I don’t believe this is impossible, but (as once I’ve said to Adam), the best thing is not to make one book, but several books

Now, you’re thinking I’m CrAZy! ;-)))

What I mean is. A generalist book about TE is not very attractive in my opinion (Only NG , Magnum or Time Life are able to do this because of their name), but creating thematic books is a very different issue. The generalist book would be almost only appealing to people interested in photography, as the later not only to those interested in photography, as well those interested in travel and also in a specific theme.

For example (and these are only simple examples), having books with the theme “India – People, and Traditions”, “South-East Asia Contrasts”, “Great Monuments of the World”, “Man and the Sea” or “Western Daily Life”, etc., could be a great way to publish books.

The advantages of the several books are:

- The fact that we’re creating an offer to a specific market target and thus easier to sell.
- Lower cost and lower risk of publishing.
- The opportunity of adapting to the market in later themes to publish.
- If it’s successful, the creation of a “collection” will make the former buyers to buy the other “volumes” eventually.
- Each book will be cheaper and easier to sell, contrary to a big expensive book.
- Each book would be a smaller project and easier to take care and organize, especially in the beginning.
- The different themes would give the chance for a much broader number of members to be included, and reduce the disputes.

I guess some can remember of other advantages (or disadvantages…).

Also, creating specific themes regarding areas of the world could make easier to get more supports if the money was to be given to Aid Organizations.

For example, giving the income to an India Aid Organization from a book about India, would not only be commendable, but could also make easier to gather support due to the nature of the project, even from the mentioned organizations (experienced in gathering supports). In Europe the same applies for example for organizations helping people with mental of physical problems, etc…

I think that smaller and easier manageable projects are better than one single book portraying generalist images.

gringofil 06-21-2005 07:24 PM

Re: Trekearth Book
 
I'm a bloody pessimist...kill me if you don't like it! ;-)

Anyway, and exhibition of photographs such as those in Triste was achieved by a group of individuals that already had an idea in mind, floor space to do it in and a target audience to buy the tickets (or was it free? can't remember right now). Also, they are professionals at what they do, they know the business and they know what the market needs and wants. We, on the other hand, or most of us anyway, are weekend photographers who may at one time or another have stumbled into a shot that works and that people want to see. As a whole, and don't get me wrong here, about 1% of the shots on TE qualify to be published. It's a huge task of selecting these shots and in order for all to be fair and square perhaps it should be done by a third party...people who have no opinions about the photographers, not friends and family (Daddy always says your shots rock, but the guy down the street slams you down and tells you they're all crap...who would you believe?).

Anyway, do this, see if it works, self-publish if you must, but the money and time spent on doing it just for the vanity of seeing your photo in print...well it's your decision, ain't it?

Cheers!

joseelias 06-21-2005 07:40 PM

Re: Trekearth Book
 
1% of 160.000 photos is... 1.600...

Quite enough for a book. ;-)

I agree that doing this for vanity doesn't sound nice to me. Of course, it's natural that people feel pleasure and even proud to be published, but this project should have more noble causes beyond the vanity Filip mentioned.

And as I said, some of these organizations could help. In fact it’s natural that they know people with experience in the publishing field willing to help a project like this.

Isabelle 06-21-2005 07:49 PM

Re: Trekearth Book
 
First things first :)
The most important in a photography book we already have: photographies! and we all agree there is a large amount of great photos on TE which are worth being published.
I agree with José Elias about smaller projects though. The Tsunami project gave already some experience for a project like this.
Vanity is another issue, Filip, and it´ll be treated in another point, ahead in the project.

Homerhomer 06-21-2005 08:33 PM

Re: Trekearth Book
 
once upon a time I was a part of the group that produced a calendar, worked great, each photo submitted had to have donation with it (think it was $5), and we knew how many copies will be ordered, so the printing company told us the price for so many copies, printed as many copies as we have paid for. The calendar was priced at $20, and all profit from the operation (probably no more than few hundred bucks) was given to charities.

If one thinks of a book project in this fashion it may work, however if you think of selling it to general public.... hmmm, it would have to be something really special.

I have rented number of photography books from the library, and honestly wouldn't pay a penny for most of them

Take for example book with HCB photos, well photos are fantastic, but so what, I can see them online, the book had nothing else to offer, but on the other hand "Dogs, dogs, dogs" by Elliot Erwitt, I bought and this is why:
1) fantastic images
2) good reading
3) I like dogs, so the books appealed to me not only as a photo maniac but a dog lover, it was addressed to more than just photography specific group.

That book sold, well because it was done by well known artist, book done by TE group, well it would have to have not only something special in it, but a smart marketing behind it if it is meant to be sold anywhere but to few TE members.
Peter

kinginexile 06-21-2005 08:59 PM

Re: Trekearth Book
 
I notice that the people trying to make more sense and appraise the difficulty of the project write longer replies, save Kikvel.
Tell me if i am wrong, but not one administrator has yet said "great!", and i believe Adam knows how much work he will have to put into this, just coordinating things.

Kikvel, others, write up a concrete project synopsis, show your real interest by starting spending time on it. Simply saying it's a good idea, others have done it, we have editors here (maybe the first ones cringing at being called upon), is not enough.

i actually think this is what should have been done before putting the idea in a thread.

BTW, there are more than 1% publishable pictures on TE. It's not like every picture has to be book cover worthy. For the pix contents inside the books, I went to a lot of bookstore lately, and thanks to 9 months on TE, I was able to apply critical eye to quite a few books . Some guys have the knack to sell themselves, or they are simply making their passion a profession. Still, not all their pix (and sometimes books) are an easy notch above many TE shots.

On the other hand, i saw yesterday "african ceremonies". i was blown away, absolutely fantastic book, separating the women (the authors are) and the boys. Can a TE book really make an addition on the photography shelves of a bookstore, or just be another nice book to flip thru after another.

sorry for being abrupt, just writing as i talk, do not mind, OK?...

Sincerely,

H

kikvel 06-21-2005 10:46 PM

the project is feasible
 
the pictures are here!

We just have to set the goal and scope of it

I do not have much time now, I have to flight in a few minutes, I will continue this thread saturday when I come back

regards;

K.

gringofil 06-22-2005 07:10 AM

Re: Trekearth Book
 
Vanity is the most important issue and should be adressed before such a project starts. Seperate the bad eggs from the good, so to speak, to ensure the success of such a project.

gringofil 06-22-2005 07:12 AM

Re: Trekearth Book
 
Why does Adam have to get involved? He does not own your photographs...you do. He has already given you this wonderful site to share photos at no cost...do you still want him to give you more for free? How about you do all the legwork, mate?

You know what they say: give a finger and they take a whole hand...

jinju 06-22-2005 07:24 AM

Re: Trekearth Book
 
Adam does have to get involved if this is going to be a book associated with Trek Earth. We own our photos but Adam owns all the copyrights associated with TE. And the point is that this is going to be a TE book.

I wonder though why you are so vehemently opposed to this book idea.

jinju 06-22-2005 07:27 AM

Re: Trekearth Book
 
Does it matter what people's motives are? The only criteria should be the quality of the work. Choose a 3rd party professional to sort out the best shots. Since the amount of shots is so overwhelming perhaps apply a filter of say 30 points as minimum and then choose from those passing the filter.

But I wonder how to fit all the different kinds of shots into one book. Perhaps we need several different kinds of books: portraits, landscapes, architectural, etc etc etc.

gringofil 06-22-2005 07:36 AM

Re: Trekearth Book
 
Why does it have to be a "Trek Earth" book? Why do you need to use Adam's logo? Perhaps just publish under your own title and call it whatever you want to call it (The World Through A Lens) for example. And anyway, Adam's job stands only at granting you his permission to use the TE logo, etc...But I don't think you have the right to ask him to helm the project in any way, shape or form. If he wants to do it out of the goodness of his heart, so be it, but don't force the guy to do it. And don't use the word "have", OK? He does not "have" to do anything.

Why am I opposed? Photography is a huge business that is hard to crack and to get into. You must have a portfolio of tens of thousands of "good" shots in order to be considered into a famous stock agency much less to get published. So if someone ain't gonna pay to get published, doing it yourself (what I called vanity a few posts back) seems kida strange, time consuming and expensive. If you want to sell your prints, perhaps the best way is to start small. Go to a small gallery in your city, show them your work, stage a display for a week or two, generate interest, see if people like your work or not, than try to sell. Once you sell and print or two, you might want to get into the publishing of a photo book as well, but that is way down the line.

Basically, you have to learn to crawl before you learn to walk. And jumping into a sea filled with sharks just because your Mommy and Daddy say your shots are good and that you should publish a book and spend a lot of money on it (your money)...seems childish to me.

If I had to put money on a book or to buy a new lens or camera of join a photo class to improve my skills...which one do you think I would choose?

gringofil 06-22-2005 07:38 AM

Re: Trekearth Book
 
Peter is right...most of the photo books out there (even the ones published by famous photogs) are just crap. Now why would someone fork over twenty bucks for a book filled with photos by people whom they have never heard of? In that case, hope that all your family members will buy at least one copy...

jinju 06-22-2005 07:51 AM

Re: Trekearth Book
 
I think you need to calm down.

Why use have? Adam does HAVE TO give prmission IF this is going to be a TE project. If he doesnt, no TE project as TE belongs to him.

Why do it as a TE ptoject? Because its what binds us as photographers. Professional or amateur, we are on TE. Doing it another way is feasible, sure, but it takes some of the context out of it.

Yes, for ONE photographer to get published he needs an extensive portfolio. We arent talking about me, you or any other single person getting published, but us as a COLECTIVE. And one thing we do have is an extensive portfolio of good photos. You wil find hundreds of VERY good to great shots on this site. So as a collective group, we have what you say is needed.

I wish you wouldnt use the mommy and daddy analogy. We arent kids, ok? We dont need your patronizing attitude and your childish anaologies to get the point. I dont like people who think they are above aothers. We all understand the basic facts, yet why should we let that stop us? I think there are enough good photos here on TE to put together one or even a series of good photography books.

gringofil 06-22-2005 08:00 AM

Re: Trekearth Book
 
I'm not above anyone...far from it, mate! (I'm the only one here, in fact, that does not want to join this project because I think my photography is not up to par) And I'm calm, mate, don't you worry yourself too much.

All Adam has to give is his permission. The puck stops there. Cheers and good luck!

jinju 06-22-2005 08:07 AM

Re: Trekearth Book
 
I didnt say whose photography was up to par. I dont think mine is either, but I know several people whose phototos are. Check out mackiekda. That said, theres no reason why there couldnt be a a large enough pool of photos from TE that would make a good book. There ARE brilliant shots here, rare but from the thousands of pics on TE I think you could make a 100-200 page book of top notch photos.

The issue of raking in a profit is a WHOLE different matter to be considered. But its totally seperate from the issue of having enough good shots to get a project off the ground.

We wouldnt even need to start huge. I mean, it could be a limited kind of a deal, we dont need to be in every Chapters in America. A limited edition of a few thousand books to start off and to let us gauge its success. If it flops, it wouldnt be a huge loss. At least though we would have given it a try.

As far as Adam, his involvement can extend as far as he wants it to. From the bare minimum of granting permission to something more extensive. Since it would be a TE project however, I imagine he would want to oversee it to some extent. I know I would.

jinju 06-22-2005 03:57 PM

How about starting smaller?
 
Look at PBase. They put together the first issue of their online magazine. You can download it and its free. Why couldnt we do that? Have features on photographers, interviews, do some feature galleries on themes of all kinds? If its on-line, we dont need to worry about publishing fees etc. What do you think?

kinginexile 06-23-2005 04:45 AM

Re: Trekearth Book
 
Why does Adam have to get involved?
--------------------------------

maybe you answered me, i am not sure. I dunno, i don't care if Adam is let off, just normal thinking on my part that if I have something i own, ort manage or is in my name, I feel a responsibility for anything derived from it, or done in its name.

kinginexile 06-23-2005 05:00 AM

Re: How about starting smaller?
 
Have features on photographers, interviews, do some feature galleries on themes of all kinds?
-------------------
that seems a better idea. A book is a major undertaking, if we want something to be proud of, I mean end product (distribution too), not just pictures in it.

Then, who will be proud of it? the guys who have shots in it, not the dozens who participate evryday and will get passed over. i think we have to look at who answered this thread with interest. Just over 10 or so. There are 1000s of members, at least 1 or 200 posting a shot within 2 to 3 days. they did not show any interest. I think I know why ;-)... (see start of paragraph)

kinginexile 06-23-2005 05:05 AM

Re: How about starting smaller?
 
Just over 10 or so.
-------------------------
9, actually.....

mlopes 06-24-2005 01:43 AM

Re: How about starting smaller?
 
well, i must agree that the online version can be easier but them what, we're online already... do you want to just sum up the better ones along with some notes?

The printed copie is quite a project, hard indeed, do we have the capability? hell yes.... and in the end the own satisfaction will certanly overcome the many hours spent!

Some subjects already mentioned before:
- Quality of photos???? ahahah TE has better photos than most of the photograpy books i've seen. Yesterday i've saw a book for 45€ of nightshots from lisbon... crap... give me a good camera and i'll do the same within days (LOL, and my nightshots sucks...)
- Quantity... well, there's no need to talk about this
- Money... yes it will be expensive... along with photos we have to donate some money
- Target audience... as i've read before the target audience will be us and our family, so be it! at least we can donate some funds to some association, and them, the second edition will be sold to some of our friends also, and the 3rd edition to friends of our friends and them to the generall public
- Recognition... CRAP CRAP CRAP... Henri Besson was certanly not know until he start to publish is work right? or did he born a megastar? i don't know many of the photographers that publish some books... i buy the photos not the photographer

Sorry for this testment... i've been away from the discussion for some time

Mario

kikvel 06-25-2005 03:14 PM

As I promised to come back on Saturday
 
I am here.

Ok let us go point by point.

Feasibility
The book project is feasible. I am sure we can do it. We need mainly:
- Good pictures. We have.
- A leader of the project. We do not have.
- Money. Let us say we do have.
- Good writers. We have!.
- Time.
- A support on publishing. We can get, I am sure someone here can find out, how can we publish them. Even I can find out prices here, maybe here it would be cheaper to print the book than in Europe at good quality also.

- A goal? The sole intention of publishing something for vanity, to aid someone, etc etc is ok. We do not have to save the world with our book. We just need the desire to do it and decision.
There is no need to have a specific reason, we might just do it because we just want to do it...we human beings are difficult to be understood...aren`t we?

- A definition of what pictures to be included. I suggest to use the same principles as the Trieste Exhibition. Pictures selected from all over the world according the time zones. Number of pictures per page, etc etc.

- Does this has to be done with Trekearth? Not neccesarily, but why not? I think this should not steal any credit from Adam, in fact I think this would help the site to extend its scope by offering a book hopefully on a yearly basis.

- I guess Adam should be the administrator and leader of the project. He has showed to be a strong hand when required and these things require a firm leader.

- People would get upset if not selected for the book? YES, this is totally normal and it WILL ALWAYS happen.
But the Trieste exhibition was carried out anyway. And the upset people? There is no way to make everyone happy. If you find a method to do that please let me know!!!

- We can look for sponsors, the same ones already advertize at Trekearth page.

- We can have also a electronic version in pdf format that can be downloaded by paying a certain amount.

- We can do many things, but first we need to organize ourselves. I personally would be more than happy to help. These kind of projects will boost your skills on a personal level. I do not see a problem here. Many would like to join.

- Many TE members do not participate at this forum, but if we invite them I am sure they will join this project.

K.

longwayfromhome 06-25-2005 10:22 PM

Re: Trekearth Book
 
Fil, there are many many reasons why a schmoe would part with hard cash for pictures by unknown photographers. The first, and most obvious answer is that most ordinary civilians don't know (or give a damn) who takes the pictures that fills their (gorgeous coffee) table books (i'm thinking of the last two NG books and the lONEly Planet book specifially, but their are many examples of this). The fact is people will buy books of good pictures, whether or not they know, or care, who made them. There is even the Phaidon book 'Anonymous' that I can cite as precedent. It is a celebration of photographs taken by unkown photographers which weighs in at £19.95 (US$45) and was fantastically successful last christmas.

kikvel 06-26-2005 12:30 AM

come on guys!
 
wouldn`t you be challenged to be part of such international project?

Is there already a book made by so many writers and photographers from all over the planet earth?

K.

longwayfromhome 06-26-2005 02:50 AM

Re: As I promised to come back on Saturday
 
I am prepared to help in any way I can.

oochappan 06-26-2005 02:28 PM

Re: come on guys!
 
right Cesar
but maybe a narrow target or a theme would be usefull for help in the third world then photographers can offer their photos related to the theme and the editor will decide for the most usefull, not a question of a nice empty photoalbum then but a well targetted project with sensefull photos.
Tsunami call proved that it can be done but here it was relate to one moment already forgotten by the most, it should work on longer term like f.i. child labour in the world.

kikvel 06-26-2005 04:38 PM

Re: As I promised to come back on Saturday
 
Thanks Morgan, I will by myself check here the prices of a publication.

Jose Elias, I do not think you are crazy at all!
Your ideas are nice.

Henk
Yes we can do many things, but at first we need to make a brainstorm to write down some of them. This is not a short term project, it would take months to organize and to do something, but who is in a rush?
I believe we can do something alltogether even though we are distributed all over the world.

K.


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