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  #11  
Old 12-31-2010, 12:14 PM
Keitht Keitht is offline
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Thank you Mariusz. You have made the points that we as other members and moderators have been trying to get across for a long time. We are not saying, and never have said, that there is no place for images which do not fit the fairly tight parameters on TE. The very reason TrekLens and TrekNature were created was precisely so that there are other locations where some very fine images can be posted without breaking the rules.
Speaking purely as a member (forget the mod bit) I can see very few reasons for posting images on TE which don't fit the TOS.

1. Particularly for new members, the TOS are not obvious and take considerable effort to find and read. Even when you access the link there are still a number of screens to view. That doesn't encourage reading of those links. As an analogy, how many of us read the instruction manual for a camera completely before we use it, particularly if it's on a CD which takes extra effort? Not many I suggest.
2. Sometimes a member will post an image which they genuinely believe does fit the TOS, but the mods disagree.
3. Occasionally a member will simply forget about the TOS because they have an image they like and want to share.
4. Regrettably there are also a comparatively small number of members who seem to believe the rules apply only to other people and they should be allowed to post what they want, where they want.

Some people have argued that they don't post on TrekLens because there is very little activity there. Maybe there is so little activity there because they are posting the images on TE instead despite the fact that they know of TL!

Let me again stress that these have been my views ever since TL & TN were created. Views held long before I was asked to become a mod on the site.
  #12  
Old 12-31-2010, 02:50 PM
emka emka is offline
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I was also wandering why people do not move to TL or TN but rather quit the site and move somewhere else. I see some reasons of it, and in no way it is lazyness. The people who leave TE are usually very active in many places.
I have all three accounts but do not use TN nor TL. Why? The rules on TN are very strict, even more than on TE. You must know the names of the plants or animals, it is rather for those people who specialize in some areas, often professionally. There are many members who are good in butterflies or birds or bugs and are very happy there. Often they are active on both sites. As to TL, there it can be everything, for instant the portraits of lovely daughter everyday, or 30 tulips during a month. In many cases the photos are like on TE, sometimes the same. But the other thing is the social aspect of TE. It makes me to be rather here than on Photofolia, Aminus3, Fotopedia or ,Italia in Foto (I am in all these sites, on Fotopedia quite successfully). I have friends HERE, I met many of them personally - up to now more than 60 persons from 13 countries. It is another way of learning the world through photography - we make photos in the same place, but then they are different as everyone sees the different things. The TE meetings are something very special. The people like to meet each other not only on computer screen but also in reality. For me it is not the same whom I show my photos and who will critic them. Very often I make photos to show them here for specific persons. And in this aspect TE was unique. This is probably the reason that the loss of any member is so painful.
Senior members like me do not like to be treated as kids. I see a lot of times that ToS rules are violated and it happens nothing. It makes anger - once something is permitted, other time not. I know many people who left because of that.
The Russians say: Staryj drug luchshe novykh dvukh (the old firend is better than two new ones) , I can have new friends but I do not like to loose the old ones.

Last edited by emka; 12-31-2010 at 02:55 PM.
  #13  
Old 12-31-2010, 03:00 PM
fanni fanni is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emka View Post
The Russians say: Staryj drug luchshe novykh dvukh (the old firend is better than two new ones)
Oh YEAH! I confirm this!

May I also add a little quotation here: "Well, nobody's prefect!"

(most probably many of you remember this last line in the "Some Like It Hot" movie)
  #14  
Old 12-31-2010, 03:22 PM
Keitht Keitht is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emka View Post
I was also wandering why people do not move to TL or TN but rather quit the site and move somewhere else. I see some reasons of it, and in no way it is lazyness. The people who leave TE are usually very active in many places.
But the other thing is the social aspect of TE. ..... I have friends HERE, I met many of them personally - up to now more than 60 persons from 13 countries. .......
Senior members like me do not like to be treated as kids. I see a lot of times that ToS rules are violated and it happens nothing. It makes anger - once something is permitted, other time not. I know many people who left because of that.
I understand what you are saying about the social aspect, but if there was more activity on TL then the social aspect would grow. It's a chicken and egg situation - which comes first!
Yes images are missed by the moderators, that's why there is the option 'Report Problem' under every image when you open it. If you believe the rules are being violated please tell us. We can then make a decision on its suitability and you will be helping to provide the consistency of treatment which we all want to see.
  #15  
Old 12-31-2010, 03:56 PM
emka emka is offline
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Hi, Oh no, I will not be a nark, the cases are often quite obvious (flowers, close ups, family members) but it is not my task. I can't help but TL is boring.
  #16  
Old 12-31-2010, 04:47 PM
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mkamionka mkamionka is offline
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Cool

I feel well on TE and find TL not interesting because people upload there what they call "art", and some (also senior) members try to do that here as well, hence our discussion. They want to share their photos and/or feelings never mind the TE profile. I like TE exactly for its distinct profile, it does not disturb the social life at all.

I take plenty of photos which I like and which I don't post here because I think they do not suite this forum. That's it.

I think moderators could pick even more unsuitable photos but because there are so many uploads I realize they just remove most obvious cases.
I would tend to be even more selective, for example if a photo has not a single sharp object the quality is "too artistic" to learn anything from it, etc.
But because I don't have time to contribute to this process by myself I don't criticize their work. Somebody has to make this dirty job.
  #17  
Old 12-31-2010, 05:00 PM
Keitht Keitht is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emka View Post
Hi, Oh no, I will not be a nark, the cases are often quite obvious (flowers, close ups, family members) but it is not my task. I can't help but TL is boring.
Your choice but therein lies the problem. We (the mods) have acknowledged the fact that we can't view every image and therefore it is inevitable that some images will slip through the net. I don't have a problem with members not being comfortable about reporting images, but it's a bit much if those same members then complain about inconsistency.
A bit like not voting in an election and then complaining that the wrong people were elected
  #18  
Old 12-31-2010, 07:29 PM
emka emka is offline
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And what is the result of these actions?
I checked the number of photos posted in November in four years. In 2007 it was 19951 photos, in 2008 - 16362, in 2009 - 14927, 2010 - 7269 and in December this year - at the moment is 6604. What will be the number in 2011? And these are only numbers, not the quality of the photos. Do you remember the photos of Carper, Floydian, ,Kath Featherstone, Peter Bohringer or Fulvio?
Is it the goal you want to achieve? Will be the new members interested in such a site? Who will be the winner?
So, be more strict with interepretations of TOS!!

Last edited by emka; 12-31-2010 at 07:35 PM.
  #19  
Old 01-01-2011, 06:34 AM
macondo macondo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emka View Post
And what is the result of these actions?
I checked the number of photos posted in November in four years. In 2007 it was 19951 photos, in 2008 - 16362, in 2009 - 14927, 2010 - 7269 and in December this year - at the moment is 6604. What will be the number in 2011? And these are only numbers, not the quality of the photos. Do you remember the photos of Carper, Floydian, ,Kath Featherstone, Peter Bohringer or Fulvio?
Is it the goal you want to achieve? Will be the new members interested in such a site? Who will be the winner?
So, be more strict with interepretations of TOS!!
Hi Malgorzata!

Those statistics are interesting, and so are the statistics of membership. Using the statistics page, it appears that total membership is now about 100,000. I think this is actually more than the membership in 1997, so, if you are right about the postings then we have more members, but they are uploading less frequently. There may be numerous reasons for this but your vaguely expressed point ('What is the result of these actions') seems to be that there is only one reason. I'm assuming that you mean it's the fault of 'these actions' of the moderators - 'Is that the goal you want to achieve?' you ask, and it sounds to me like that question is addressed to the moderators. It's a rhetorical question, isn't it, but the point you are making is too ridiculous to answer. Some members seem to have this preposterous idea, and each time a member comes to the forum to complain about a photo being removed, those members are quick to blame the moderators for the departure of so-and-so and so-and-so, and a list of some inactive or departed members is thrown around eg. 'Carper, Floydian, ,Kath Featherstone, Peter Bohringer or Fulvio'. I say this simple theory is unbelievable and false.

[By the way, Floydian is on Photofolia (started by Peter Boehringer) now - 32 photos uploaded in 12 months, also Carper - no photos in 8 months, Fulvio - 23 photos in 10 months, none since September, Feather - 53 in 11 months. On that site, 264 members upload between 10 and 15 shots per day - moderators must be terrible. But, seriously, I would love to see them back on TE, and many others who I remember so well and wonder where they are. I think we all lament their absence.]

The truth is that members develop many motives for leaving or becoming inactive. I know many left or stopped uploading when the site was bought and changes were made to it. I know some members have gone on to establish their own websites or blogs. Mariusz mentions some of the reasons in his contribution to this thread. If the moderators' painstaking efforts to implement the TOS in a fair and reasonable manner (without allowing TE to become a free-for-all) are what is driving away so many members, then it is clear that TE, as defined by the TOS, is no longer suitable for them. Sad, but true. I think it is fair enough to criticise the TOS and suggest changes or improvements, in fact it is really necessary, but how about a bit of respect for the moderators? The habit of attacking the moderators before they have even had a chance to reconsider a photo's removal which has been challenged by the member, can only undermine TE, not improve it.

Malgorzata, you say
Quote:
Oh no, I will not be a nark, the cases are often quite obvious (flowers, close ups, family members) but it is not my task.
It sounds like you are happy that it is somebody else's task. Yes, speaking as one of those 'somebodies', cases are often quite obvious (although the anger of some members who upload those 'obvious' cases would surprise you!). But it's the difficult ones, the borderline cases, the sensitive issues, that we still have to make a decision on. Sometimes we find we have made a mistake. We are prepared to reconsider and re-activate photos, and this is done. Do you think we feel comfortable doing that when 'threats' are made to quit or to stop uploading photos in protest, and when we are blamed for the departure at some time or other of so-and-so?

Earlier, you said members would leave because the moderators were inconsistent. That is a problem, but with only a few of us, we cannot possibly find every photo outside the TOS. We are very, very careful to try to be consistent. But every time we are 'consistent' we might be accused of being 'inflexible', so we can't win!

I don't know if members will be pleased that you said...
Quote:
So, be more strict with interepretations of TOS!!
Perhaps you were being sarcastic - just giving advice on how best to achieve the moderators' aims of destroying TE!

Happy New Year,
Andrew
  #20  
Old 01-01-2011, 07:39 AM
phwall phwall is offline
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Default Time to get over yourselves

Hi Andrew,
It saddens me to see you defending yourself and the rest of the moderating team in a Forum like this. What I see as an onerous and thankless task, a scant few others seem to see moderating the site as your personal platform for the persecution of all and sundry for daring to suggest you have a better understanding of the TOS than they do, well, let them eat cake.

Keep up the good work, you and the rest of the team are doing a great job. I know you have the confidence of the great majority of members.

All the best for 2011.

Best Wishes
Peter
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